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Writer Ecosystem with Russell Nohelty, half 2 · Author’s Enjoyable Zone

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Writer Ecosystem with Russell Nohelty, half 2

Go HERE, to hearken to half 1 and for the total transcript.

“You’re not doing advertising unsuitable, you’re doing the unsuitable advertising.” – Russell Nohelty

In “Episode 65. Writer Ecosystem with Russell Nohelty, half 2” host Beth Barany, creativity coach, trainer, and science fiction and fantasy novelist, talks to bestselling fantasy creator, writer, and podcast host Russel Nohelty to debate in additional element the different sorts from the creator eco-system and the most important downside authors face when constructing their profession.

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Writer Ecosystem: www.authorecosystem.com

Free World Constructing Workbook for Fiction Writers: https://writersfunzone.com/weblog/world-building-resources/

Join the 30-minute Story Success Clinic right here: https://writersfunzone.com/weblog/story-success-clinic/

Get assist in your fiction writing by a novelist and writing trainer and coach. Schedule an exploratory name right here and see if Beth can assist you right this moment: https://writersfunzone.com/weblog/discovery-call/

ABOUT RUSSEL NOHELTY Image of Russel Nohelty

Russell Nohelty (www.russellnohelty.com) is a USA At this time bestselling fantasy creator who has written dozens of novels and graphic novels together with The Godsverse Chronicles, The Obsidian Spindle Saga, and Ichabod Jones: Monster Hunter. He’s the writer of Wannabe Press, co-host of the Kickstart Your E book Gross sales podcast, cofounder of the Author MBA coaching academy, and cofounder of The Way forward for Publishing Mastermind. He additionally co-created the Writer Ecosystem archetype system to assist authors thrive. You possibly can take our quiz to search out your excellent ecosystem at www.authorecosystem.com. He lives in Los Angeles along with his spouse and canine.

Substack: http://authorstack.substack.com




The How To Write The Future podcast is for science fiction and fantasy writers who need to write optimistic futures and efficiently carry these tales out into {the marketplace}. Hosted by Beth Barany, science fiction novelist and creativity coach for writers.

Ideas for fiction writers! This podcast is for you you probably have questions like:

  • How do I create a plausible world for my science fiction story?
  • How do I determine what’s not working if my story feels flat?
  • How do I make my story extra fascinating and alive?

This podcast is for readers too in the event you’re in any respect interested by the way forward for humanity.

Transcript for Writer Ecosystem with Russell Nohelty, half 2 

Hey everybody, welcome again to a different episode of How you can Write the Future. I’m your host Beth Barany.

Simply need to remind you that that is the podcast for science fiction and fantasy writers who need to create optimistic, optimistic futures as a result of after we imaginative and prescient what is feasible and we put that into our books, we assist make it so for the world. This podcast can also be for anybody who cares in regards to the future.

Take heed to half 1 first! 

Only a fast heads up. For those who haven’t already listened to half certainly one of my dialog with Russell Nohelty and the creator ecosystem, I extremely advocate that you simply return and hearken to half one now, earlier than you proceed with half two.

All proper. Let’s dive in.

Suppose Like A Grassland 

Mm-hmm That’s fascinating as a result of once I fell in with the futurists large time final 12 months and I’ve been slowly making my option to them, however I lastly acquired to be in a room with a bunch of futurists and foresight practitioners, I, I felt like I had come house in a method I hadn’t earlier than. They’re a world bunch, which was nice.

Plus, there are people who find themselves critically 30 years out, 50 years out, after which I’m writing 100 years out. So I used to be additional out than them, however they’re all future dealing with and all these fantastic detailed methods from all these completely different cultures. Yeah, I can see that in the best way I function.

Plus this marathon method of exhibiting up, exhibiting up, exhibiting up day-after-day for the factor, little by little, and tons of content material advertising. And I haven’t efficiently carried out a membership but, but it surely’s really on my plate to construct that out for the nonfiction, for the programs that I’ve. After which I used to be simply toying with the concept of going again to Patreon or I’ve been Ream you launched – I discovered about Ream out of your publication– the subscription service for authors that’s being constructed particularly for authors.

So I haven’t determined but ’trigger I don’t need to do further work, so I’ve to simply construct it in, however I’m really already naturally, like perhaps a variety of Grasslands, constructing a variety of content material each single day. There’s like 10 items of content material that fall out of me.


Yeah. And it’s very true. After I began my Substack, I needed to suppose like a Grassland. I needed to say, okay, What’s it that I need to get out of right here that may fulfill me? And that’s why I didn’t like Patreon. I didn’t like Ream.

I particularly was on Substack. I used to be like, Oh, nicely, you’re nonetheless gathering subscribers day-after-day. And a few of these have gotten paid subscribers. Always they’re getting the content material and coming in and also you don’t actually know. You must be superb at doing information evaluation as a result of it’s a must to know in the event you put out X variety of posts, Y individuals will come over Z timeframe.

However I don’t know the place they’re coming from. I imply, you’ll be able to actually take a look at every particular person I suppose, and see what hyperlink they click on. However typically, it’s a must to be comfy constructing this head of steam nearly perpetually and know that after it picks- prefer it took perpetually to get the primary couple of subscribers, however then like each week I get a pair extra. I look again three months in the past and I feel I’ve one thing like 60. I acquired two right this moment. It’s like 67 subscribers with out actually even doing a push or something for it. So it naturally works for Grasslands. It doesn’t really work for a Tundra.

“You’re not doing advertising unsuitable, you’re doing the unsuitable advertising.” 

We all the time say, “You’re not doing advertising unsuitable, you’re doing the unsuitable advertising.”

And individuals are like, oh, I hate advertising. And I’m like, okay, nicely, describe a standard factor a day that you simply like. And so they’re like, oh, nicely, I publish on social media, and I do that, and that’s like, all of that’s advertising. it’s simply you don’t take into account it advertising since you’re having fun with doing it.

So, we have to perceive that advertising shouldn’t be the enemy right here. The enemy is doing advertising that you simply don’t like. And what we have to do is learn the way to make the advertising that you simply like work. And it’s method simpler to determine the right way to make a chunk of content material work higher than it’s to start out doing TikTok, which you don’t like.


Proper. Proper.

Writer Ecosystem: Desert, All About Optimization 


In the identical method, if somebody loves social media, they’re in all probability a, a Desert as a result of they’re like, oh, there’s a sport. There’s a sport to optimize right here. There’s like, how do I get my issues up? in the event you’ve ever seen the individuals be like, I don’t perceive why individuals don’t love tech. You identical to observe this and do that Y and Z.

And then you definitely’re like, I don’t know. It’s like, that’s as a result of they’re a Desert. Like they’re trying on the platform and being like, It’s not about me. It’s in regards to the sport of how do I get the most effective BookTok right this moment. And it doesn’t matter in the event that they like me or hate me.

I have to know the right way to optimize it. And yeah.

The Writer Ecosytem Kind: Aquatic 


Yeah, that’s nice. So the 5 ecosystems you’ve drawn up are Desert, Forest, Tundra, Grassland–


And the one one we haven’t actually talked about is Aquatic.


Aquatic. Okay.


Aquatics are model managers. So, they’re the George Lucas’s of writing, the place they’re format agnostic. So in the event you’ve ever met somebody who like, has a guide, after which additionally has a cereal model and a lipstick line and – it’s about servicing the mental property, so it’s about servicing the world. They might have an AR sport; they might have all of these things and so their curiosity is in increasing their attain by increasing their format and accessibility to completely different individuals.

So, for example, I don’t care a lot about audio, however I’ve pals that like audio, video, this, that, the opposite factor. They’re in 50 codecs. After which they broaden out.

They do like a a radio play or one thing after they launch and like they do a industrial and also you’re like, That sounds exhausting.

Their concept is that they’ll take ten individuals who like radio performs and 5 individuals who like books and eight individuals who like this. And over time, it creates this world that feels lived in and that’s why, typically, Aquatics have the best proportion of superfans of their viewers.

As a result of how I take into consideration superfans, I’ve all the time thought of superfans, and I did make a course known as Construct a Superfandom, so I do know one thing about it– If you may get someone to observe your work throughout a number of codecs, then each time they do this, they’re making an affirmative gesture in direction of your work.

So if somebody is only a guide particular person, then they won’t be as devoted as if in addition they do your audio play and do that, then this, and this, and this, and this, and this different factor.

I may make a guide for 400 {dollars} and like make 4,000 {dollars}. I’m like, cool, y’all like books, and I made ya some books, so it’s nice, however when somebody is doing that it often takes simply much more scope, and their audiences will not be fragmented throughout their world, they’re fragmented throughout the codecs.


Yeah, I’ve a pal like that. It’s onerous to know who she is, and it took her a very long time to know who she is. , the performs, the writing, the events, the poetry, the being a poet laureate, like she’s simply in every single place. After which over time, she has developed her voice, her model, her method of exhibiting up the place like she says, Hey, I’m doing this cool factor. You’re like, Ooh. Cool factor. Kristen’s doing a cool factor. , let’s go test it out as a result of it’s gonna be cool.

So we might have already touched on this, however, whenever you talked about how there isn’t unhealthy advertising, there’s simply, that is how I’d say it, unhealthy advertising for you or the unsuitable sort of advertising for you.

However you had this query, what’s the most important downside authors face when constructing their profession? You need to contact on that? Perhaps weave collectively what you shared?

The Greatest Downside Authors Face When Constructing Their Profession: Step One 


Yeah. So, the most important downside that folks make is– so there’s two large transitions in most authors. Effectively, three.

The primary is that they completely begin attempting to monetize their work too quickly. They’re like, Oh, this guide shouldn’t be worthwhile. So I can’t write it.

And I’m all the time like, no, you’ll be able to. You’ve solely written like two books. It is best to write that bizarre guide. You in all probability gained’t generate income from it however you may. I don’t know.

I’ve drawn comics and I’ve carried out all this different stuff to turn out to be a greater author. And I feel in the event you begin occupied with monetization too quickly, you find yourself changing into not as well-rounded a author. Since you are then solely targeted on writing one factor, and one sort of factor, and studying one sort of factor.

And so I actually respect folks that undergo the writing packages at a university, as a result of they perceive that for 4 years they’re simply gonna dick round and write some bizarre stuff. And like, on the finish of it, they’ll have a voice.

I don’t suppose it’s the going to school that’s the factor. It’s that dedication to being like, Oh, nicely, I do know for the following 4 years, I’m in all probability not going to make any cash on this. And actually, I’m going to take a position cash into it. And in doing that, you’re like, okay, nicely, I’m simply going to write down no matter bizarre factor.

After I was beginning writing, they stated, Um, your first 10 scripts are going to suck. And I used to be like, cool, I’m simply gonna write 10 scripts then they usually’re gonna suck. And like, I don’t know, like, I’ll write all kinds of genres. And I wrote a comedy and thrillers. And a variety of that stuff ended up in my books. After which even once I began to monetize my work, I used to be like, okay, I need to write this collection, however I’m probably not nice at romance. So I’m going to write down a guide that’s that’s the crux of the entire thing. I’m probably not recognized for YAs, so like, I would like to determine the right way to write these books which are action-packed however not as violent as my different work.

And so, I began to include these methods to get me to be a greater author as a substitute of simply how to earn more money.

And so, the primary transition is, I now have a voice. I now can persistently make product and I can reliably make one thing and end it. And even when I don’t know the way it will look in the beginning, it’ll all finish up- By the point it’s over, it has that normal of high quality in voice that I search for. In order that’s the 1st step.

Step Two on The Greatest Downside Authors Face When Constructing Their Profession 

Then, most individuals are available in, and they don’t seem to be in the suitable ecosystem for them.

And so they’re informed to do the whole lot, or they’re informed, I name it the stack, which I wrote about in a publish on my Substack known as The Writer Stack.

They’re informed what the factor is. They’re informed by Deserts, they usually’re a Forest.

And I ought to point out: there may be nothing unsuitable with a Desert instructing the factor that they need. You simply should know: I’m going to go to this Desert to be taught optimization. 

Such as you’re not going to go and be taught group from a Desert. You’re going to be taught group from a Forest as a result of they’re the most effective at group.

Such as you’re going to go to Pat Flynn to study group as a result of he’s very clearly a Forest. Otherwise you’re going to study model constructing from an Aquatic as a result of they’ve had essentially the most success there.

However what finally ends up taking place is individuals say, I’m going to go be taught from X, Y, and Z particular person the right way to be taught publishing. And also you’re like, Ooh, no, no, I can educate you the right way to launch nicely.

Monica can educate you the right way to make evergreen content material and memberships. And due to how a lot work we do in direct gross sales and evolution we’ve carried out, we will now educate lots. We’re like full-stack individuals. Monica, somewhat greater than me as a result of she additionally does retailers and I don’t, however you need to be taught from the individuals which are going to show you the factor.

Some writers are Deserts. And so after they be taught from Deserts, oof, man like they take off like a rocket. However most individuals will not be deserts. And so you’ve Forests writing like a Desert.

You have got Grasslands who’re attempting to not go deep, however go huge and that’s simply not good. That’s not how they succeed.

The following transition is like making your ecosystem wholesome.

Making Your Writer Ecosystem Wholesome 


Mm-hmm. Inform us about that.


So whenever you make your ecosystem wholesome, it means: think about bringing a cactus to a tropical rainforest, or vice versa. They’re not going to succeed.

So if you’re a Desert and also you’re getting rain always, you’re going to simply be mud. If you’re a tropical rainforest and also you get no rain, you’re going to wither and die.

In each methods, your ecosystem is wildly unhealthy.

So step one after you’ve put out some work and it’s persistently, as a result of we do get this factor: it looks as if your system is extra geared in direction of individuals who have launched some books.

And I’m like, that’s factual. It’s a gross sales and advertising archetyping system for writers.

You should be at a spot the place you’re promoting and advertising your work to get essentially the most out of it.

However the best way which you can maximize this earlier than you’re like, let’s name it pre-monetization is know who you’re going to be taught from and why and be taught which issues resonate with you and what is perhaps the trigger for that.

So step one is like I am going from unhealthy ecosystem to wholesome ecosystem.

So like I’m a Grassland and now I get I’ve a few timber stood up, like cash is coming in. Like, I do know that once I put $5 into my enterprise, $10 comes out. Like, that is the subject that I discuss.

I acquired it. I, I don’t simply get what I need. Like, I can then return and say, okay, that is my assumption. After which once I take a look at that assumption, I’m proper.

This is without doubt one of the hardest issues is individuals do the following step too quickly, which is evolve.

Don’t do that too quickly: Evolve past their pure ecosystem 

Evolve past their pure ecosystem, which is whenever you take a look at somebody like Neil Gaiman, who’s a Forest, however he’s additionally directing films and doing all this different stuff and all these items.

Now think about you’ve a wholesome ecosystem but it surely’s not secure and also you attempt to introduce a unique factor into it.

Otherwise you introduce that factor into the unsuitable place in your ecosystem or just like the unsuitable place in your atmosphere.

So it’s a must to then go from: I’m unhealthy to: Oh, I see the sunshine. I’m a Desert and I do know I’m a Tundra after which it’s a must to construct it, in order that it capabilities correctly.

So with Tundras, they should go on like a rolling hill launch cycle. Effectively, what’ll occur is that they’ll launch and be like, that is nice. After which with out doing any of the opposite actions like hibernating, viewers constructing, like build up the factor, they’ll simply be like, I’m now going to launch eight books this 12 months.

And also you’re like, okay, however you’re launching eight books to the identical thousand individuals or 500 individuals. Like a part of it’s there’s a cadence of like, You have got launched, you at the moment are right here, you’re now creating, and now you’re constructing your record, and also you’re doing all these list-building actions. So the following time, there’s 2,000 individuals.

And in the event you’re not doing this half, you’re gonna hold overextending the viewers, and also you’re gonna perhaps make more cash, however throughout extra initiatives, it’s gonna really feel like much less cash. So it’s a must to know your Grasslandiness and be capable to know the right way to maintain it as a result of an ecosystem that may’t maintain, can’t develop.


Proper. Yeah.

There’s a number of steps within the evolution course of 


After which step two or step three, I suppose.

So you’re pre-monetization to love wholesome ecosystem, unhealthy to wholesome, after which it’s from wholesome to evolution.

There’s a number of steps within the evolution course of, however I’m going to simply break it down actual merely for you.

You’re mainly taking the issues from one another ecosystem that be just right for you and incorporating them into what you are promoting separately, in all probability one 1 / 4 or perhaps one even a 12 months.

So if you’re a Grassland, you in all probability have a membership going that’s going nicely, or you’ve programs which are going nicely. There’s one thing that you simply’re doing that’s funneling that cash into you in the best way that works as a Grassland.

And then you definitely’re like, cool. I now need to have a giant launch. I don’t need to be taught to Tundra as a result of that appears to be the following evolution. I need to rise up. We name it once more, we name it “standing up a tree.” So like standing up a tree takes a very long time. So it’s like, I need to do a brief burst to get this.

Just like the Kickstarter guide. We did a Kickstarter guide and Get Your E book Promoting On Kickstarter on Kickstarter. And we had been like, we need to make the Kickstarter factor. 

And so we like, increase. We stood up the tree in a month after which like we did that every one the stuff round it, however like we had the tree-ed-ness of it from the Tundra.

Monica was capable of incorporate that.

Or I’m a Tundra, however I’ve a membership that’s going, I don’t know, fairly decently for the primary time, however solely as a result of I do know what to search for in that ecosystem. Or okay, so now you’ve one or two launches a 12 months.

Let’s say one launch a 12 months. On the whole, a Grassland shouldn’t be going to be like, sure, heck sure, I need 5 launches a 12 months.

Let’s simply say one. Every little thing’s the membership. However then yearly you place out a brand new guide or a set of essays or like one thing, I don’t know.

So that you then are like, my viewers is actually stepping into like pins or workbooks. Let’s simply hold this as a nonfiction factor. I actually need to do workbooks. So it’s like now you’re shifting into an Aquatic zone since you’re altering codecs, you’re altering issues in that nature. And then you definitely’re like: , I actually need to do adverts like I’m at a spot that I simply can’t develop organically anymore. Like I have to be taught adverts and now you’re like, I would like to determine what the optimum factor to do is. It’s not my complete enterprise, however I have to optimize the advert a part of it, so like I get the most effective ROI.

Effectively, you’re incorporating some Desert on this in it.

It’s simply that course of of claiming, and actually like figuring out that you’ve got a deficiency in, I’m going to return to adverts as a result of most individuals have a deficiency in adverts and being like, I can’t cope with adverts now, however that’s like my Q2 concern.

Or like I’m going to rent Mal Cooper, Mal, and Jill Cooper, who wrote Assist, My Fb Adverts Suck and do Fb. And so they’re like, I do know it’s going to price a ton of cash, however I don’t care as a result of the remainder of my enterprise works, it’s revenue. I can afford to spend – two thousand, no matter their price is, 2500, 3000 {dollars} a month on their adverts as a result of I don’t need to cope with it.

Which is a chunk we don’t discuss that a lot as a result of most individuals will not be at that stage, however since we’re right here, I’m nearly like I’ve nearly capped out on what I do know in regards to the creator ecosystem at this level.

Then the a part of that, whenever you’re evolving, can also be saying, okay, I have to construct a staff as a result of what we’ve got discovered from speaking to simply enterprise homeowners is individuals are horrible at hiring and getting the most effective from their groups.

So like a Grassland is nice at your content material advertising and thought management and analysis, however you shouldn’t have them in your social media staff. You’re not getting the most effective from particular person by making them do this.

Like your launch staff ought to be in all probability filled with Tundras as a result of they know the right way to construct pleasure and pull that factor again.

Like an Aquatic is actually good at model growth and enterprise growth.

And a Desert is nice at optimizations, like your social media staff, your adverts staff, all of that, that stuff.

So it’s not nearly including that which makes you stronger, but additionally saying, how can I construct a staff that does the issues I hate doing, however they really love doing?



In order that’s it for half two of my dialog with Russell Nohelty.

Keep tuned for subsequent week. We’ll dig into his upcoming Way forward for Publishing occasion a giant mastermind, taking place in 2024 in New Orleans in February. So keep tuned for that.

And only a fast reminder, you probably have any questions on this work that Russell and Monica are doing, you’ll want to try authorecosystem.com and take their quiz. 

All proper till subsequent time.

Write lengthy and prosper.

Cherished this episode? Depart us a assessment and ranking right here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2012061

ABOUT BETH BARANY Image of Beth Barany

Beth Barany teaches science fiction and fantasy novelists the right way to write, edit, and publish their books as a coach, trainer, guide, and developmental editor. She’s an award-winning fantasy and science fiction novelist and runs the podcast, “How To Write The Future.”


Be taught extra about Beth Barany at these websites: 


Writer web siteTeaching web site / College of Fiction / Author’s Enjoyable Zone weblog


Contact Beth: https://writersfunzone.com/weblog/podcast/#tve-jump-185b4422580

E-mail: beth@bethbarany.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethbarany/


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